tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post4475308648189736740..comments2023-10-26T20:40:47.532+11:00Comments on opɯdʒɯlɯklɑr: Montreal VI: Joual 4, Nicholas 1opoudjishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-53950538709765548072019-08-29T01:46:00.239+10:002019-08-29T01:46:00.239+10:00English is pluricentric too, but without the langu...<i>English is pluricentric too, but without the language academies and authorities that you can pinpoint in French and German.</i><br /><br />Late to the party: for German, there's no academy, and only the spelling is regulated. Any attempt to regulate the rest would either be summarily ignored or trigger a violent revolution, complete with heads staked to town gates, within hours.David Marjanovićnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-1114786082190817002014-11-07T12:22:31.028+11:002014-11-07T12:22:31.028+11:00"Ego sum rex romanus et supra grammaticam.&qu..."Ego sum rex romanus et supra grammaticam."<br /><br />—Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund (1368-1437), when a cardinal at the Council of Constance (a 1414 event that deposed all three of the contenders for the Papacy) corrected him for declining <i>schisma</i> as feminine rather than neuter.<br /><br />On the other hand, he spoke fluent French, German, Italian, and Hungarian.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-10131448231218931602010-02-16T11:10:38.761+11:002010-02-16T11:10:38.761+11:00De rien, Melissa. Le switch is not an irrational s...De rien, Melissa. <i>Le switch</i> is not an irrational strategy, FWIW; it's alienating, sure, but there are reasons why it happens:<br /><br />* The in-group marker is Joual and not just French; language use in Montreal (as everywhere else) is about Us-And-Them, and Standard French just gets you "Them" language.<br />* The language conflict is alive and while, and <i>le switch</i> is a sort of coping mechanism.<br />* Unlike Louisiana, Montreal French is not so minority that they're grateful at anyone speaking French. Unlike Paris, Montreal French is not so majority (especially in prestige historically) that they'll just default to French with strangers (with the exception of that panhandler guy on Cathcart).<br /><br />It's difficult: yes, <i>le switch</i> means Montrealers are rejecting an effort to meet them on their terms; but it's their turf, and they set the rules on when their terms may be met. At any rate, Angry French Guy <a href="http://angryfrenchguy.com/2010/02/15/there-is-plenty-of-french-at-the-vancouver-olympics/" rel="nofollow">is in Vancouver this week</a>, with his own take on "speaking bilingual"; and he always has a more informed take on Quebec linguistic issues than I do. What with him being Québécois and all...opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-47745451257801239292010-02-16T10:43:26.067+11:002010-02-16T10:43:26.067+11:00it's comforting to hear about le switch phenom...it's comforting to hear about le switch phenomenon from someone else; I wish I had known about that before my 5 weeks in Montreal this summer. I have an advanced intermediate grasp of French, but my accent is distinctly west coast of Canada French (that is, more standard French) with few hints of my anglo roots (a.k.a., i didn't speak joual or Quebec French--since that time, I have made efforts to expand my understanding of joual, etc.--but I grew up speaking French with my French marraine). It was super insulting to get le switch, especially when I communicate clearly, understand what's being said, and have very adequate compositional skills and accent. Plus, I came to Montreal specifically study at UQAM and to practice and improve my French, but i felt discouraged from engaging and conversing with locals in French on a number of occasions. I never had any problems interacting with the locals while in France, so I don't get the issue with my interlocutors in Montreal. (Heck, I even had no troubles conversing with the Cajuns down in LA--and they never answered me in English! Seriously, have you ever talked with a Cajun speaker? Intense.). Le switch is insulting and alienating, IMO. Honestly, 'they' want ppl to speak (Quebec-)French in MTL, but more than a few will condescendingly reply to you in English--sorry, it's rude to do that to someone who is clearly making an effort to meet you on your terms. As a Vancouverite, I deeply believe in the active and vigorous promotion of authentic bilingualism in Canada. After my recent experiences, I just don't get the mentality of many Montrealais in their behaviour. Sorry for venting.<br />I look forward to reading more of your tales. Thanks for sharing.Melissahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12032493652387809927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-18520619972630767652009-08-11T03:44:10.194+10:002009-08-11T03:44:10.194+10:00I'm not on my laptop so I'm going to write...I'm not on my laptop so I'm going to write in English and not bother with diacritic marks.<br /><br />Think about Quebecers of Haitian descent that are francophones, they still face huge unemployment rate and many of them with diplomas are indeed forced to be in the taxi business. There are also many people from Maghreb countries that are fluent in French as well, but because of cultural differences, sometimes they have trouble to find work.<br /><br />I believe that moderate sovereignists are not discriminating people, but there is still a fringe of the people, regardless of their political views, that does discriminate.<br /><br />I remember a case when someone applied to a job sending his CV with the same qualifications but using different names. One was his real name, I don't remember exactly but it sounded Middle Eastern (Mohamed something). Then he waited to be called back, he never was.<br />Well, he decided to send back the same CV, changing only the name for a pure laine sounding name, Mr ** Tremblay. <br />Guess what, he was called upon for a phone interview. If there is such discrimination upon the way your name sound, how do you expect immigrants to react to the mainstream Quebecois society? They will resent it.<br /><br />A few years ago, a LPC candidate that lost her riding (a 'de souche' Quebecoise) to a Bloc Quebecois (the somewhat secessionist federal party) candidate that was born in Cameroon. I remember that she said disrespectful things about her. This is why I don't have a nice opinion about multiculturalism in general; accepting total cultural diversity does not mean you're going to really want to consider these 'others' as your fellow Canadian citizens. I don't believe in full assimilation either - I think that the melting pot, very criticised in Canada as being a US 'thing' is promoting the blending of cultural background from somewhere else with the mainstream cultural background as long as there are not conflicting with Western core values ( Men & Women being equal, all individuals having the same rights regardless their gender, their sex orientation, their religion, their ethnicity, State & Church separated - that is not in Canadian constitution but I wish it was because we faced a lot of religious accomodation that frankly is non-sense to me as it may cause prejudice to the majority)<br /><br />Anyways, that's probably this ethnocentric attitude that pushed me away from independentist movement. I still think it wouldn't be that bad if it could ensure some sense of security that would make laws such as Bill 101 not 'useful'. I still think that the most radicals would dream to erase all the British history to make people with last names such as Smith speak French as their mother tongue & if ever English only as a second language! I'm against such views, someone may decide more or less consciously to do such things over a number of generations (I know a lot of Quebecois de souche with names such as McGregor, McClure, Williams, francophones, sometimes even separatist as hell), but not forced by a law over someone.Léonard Langloishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15928130278471377613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-60067601464716414312009-08-07T13:36:35.592+10:002009-08-07T13:36:35.592+10:00@Léo: that bit about you not looking pur laine, th...@Léo: that bit about you not looking <i>pur laine</i>, therefore you're addressed in English, *really* struck me.<br /><br />I've written that the dominant ideology of Quebec nationalism is civic, and I believe it. But that there are individuals who assume anyone who doesn't look like them can't speak their language either... is regrettable, but not unheard of.<br /><br />Over at AFG, an Anglo commenter expressed annoyance that living in the Plateau Mont Royal, even if he only used French to his neighbours, they still would growl "why are all the Anglos moving in to our neighbourhood." AFG said it's because of those other anglos speaking just English, and this guy was just suffering the consequences of the <i>maudits'</i> bad actions.<br /><br />Maybe not. Because even before your comment, I thought, if these people don't like anglos maudits moving in to the Plateau, even if the guy they're speaking to right now is talking French to them—then language is not the issue they're objecting to; it's the Plateau demographic changing at all. And they would be reacting similarly to "visible minorities".<br /><br />("Visible minorities". I think that's only a Canadian term, and I don't quite know how to react to it.)<br /><br />I wasn't there, and I'm not there now, but that's what I suspected was going on. It's an understandable tribalist reaction if that is what went on, and it does not discredit sovereingtism at all, as the Anglo-Canadian use of "pur laine" thinks it should. But it means, again, that there are several competing discourses going on among the Montreal public.<br /><br />Such an attitude is indeed an enemy to the survival of French, which is why Law 101 was always all about Allophone allegiance, and which is why it's great (and common sense) that the Quebec establishment disavows it. But identity politics, especially as practised by the masses, is not just about a language, or even primarily about a language. <br /><br />I'm curious: how do you respond when addressed in English? Does it ever escalate?opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-60737547725216548092009-08-05T10:36:22.666+10:002009-08-05T10:36:22.666+10:00"But I was surprised that I wasn't gettin..."But I was surprised that I wasn't getting le switch more than I did. It made me all the more disappointed in myself when I really couldn't follow what was being said..."<br /><br />C'est bon signe, cela veut dire que votre français que vous qualifiez vous même de faible ne l'était pas autant que vous le croyiez. Les Montréalais sont malheureusement trop impatients et vont habituellement parler anglais (le switch) si votre accent est étranger. N'étant pas complètement «de souche» il m'arrive de me faire aborder en anglais fréquemment, le pire ennemi du français à Montréal est l'attitude des francophones envers les «autres».Léonard Langloishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15928130278471377613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-35560034294611579042009-07-30T17:22:21.353+10:002009-07-30T17:22:21.353+10:00@Léonard: welcome and thank you. I am intending on...@Léonard: welcome and thank you. I am intending on commenting on your blog, as you have a couple of interesting posts. Je vais commenter probablement en angalis, à fin de ne devenir pas un clown. Mais puisque vous êtes un francophone fier de parler français, et qui veut que ça sera sa fierté quit fait survive le français en Québec et pas seulement l'intervention gouvernmentale, alors si je fais ça, veuillez me réponder en français. Ç'est un peu plus juste, comme ça, non?...<br /><br />I am suitably mortified with the Quebecois misspelling (I *knew* there had to be a reason I was spelling it -cq- without a u: there wasn't a q there either.) I'll fix it as much as I can without falsifying history.<br /><br />Of course, my French is weak enough that I don't know if I could tell true Joual from mere Montreal accented standard French in those setting. I forgot to include it in the post, but I was worried I'd put my foot in it when I said to Mme Trudeau I didn't understand her Joual; so I listened out in the plane for the captain's announcement. Same failure to understand, which means it really was the accent that I was failing on, even before I got to the dialect.<br /><br />Of course, you should never have to apologise for speaking your own language in your own way in your own home: if I respond to bonjourhello with bonjour, the responsibility is really on me not you. (And I did not respond bonjour as often before my final day in town.) I just wish I had the presence of mind to discover the <a href="http://www.learncanadianfrench.com/" rel="nofollow">Learn Canadian French blog</a> *before* travelling north.<br /><br />But I was surprised that I wasn't getting <i>le switch</i> more than I did. It made me all the more disappointed in myself when I really couldn't follow what was being said...opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-19331591173745949492009-07-30T17:19:37.236+10:002009-07-30T17:19:37.236+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-46495396647143941472009-07-30T17:00:55.599+10:002009-07-30T17:00:55.599+10:00@Tipoukeitos: You have the book, now use it wisely...@Tipoukeitos: You have the book, now use it wisely! Really, my fault for forgetting to bring it with me to Toronto in the first place. But you made me have an interesting morning!<br /><br />The cost of postage surprises me here too; but citing prices without the VAT tax (or in this case, taxes) always aggravates people more. We just cite prices GST included, and noone meditates on it.<br /><br />Just remember: with your taxes, you're purchasing civilisation!opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-51958353759435028522009-07-30T16:55:07.847+10:002009-07-30T16:55:07.847+10:00Sorry for delay, folks.
@ John: the primary reaso...Sorry for delay, folks.<br /><br />@ John: the primary reason I volunteered to go to the workshop in Montreal was to end up with an article like this. :-) (Oh, and to contribute to better understanding of technical standards in e-learning; *that* blog post is next week, and not on this blog.)<br /><br />əɡʌstəs not ɑːɡʌstəs? Well, I say əstræiliə, so fair enough...opoudjishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02106433476518749382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-57419505732246982882009-07-30T15:42:55.453+10:002009-07-30T15:42:55.453+10:00" I wonder if Joual-speakers somewhere are al..." I wonder if Joual-speakers somewhere are already coming up with au mois d'août."<br /><br />Yes but I would not call it a typical Joual use though.Léonard Langloishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15928130278471377613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-82250693340790767392009-07-28T14:51:01.499+10:002009-07-28T14:51:01.499+10:00As a `francophone` Montrealer and McGill student, ...As a `francophone` Montrealer and McGill student, I find your experience very interesting. It seldom happens that tourists try their French, today I helped a Korean tourist & an Indian on a summer exchange and of course they were speaking to me in English. Actually, I find that you were really good in your attempts to speak French... and get replied in our dialectal Quebec French (with a degree of "Joualness" depending how we think the other speaker understand). I think we are just speaking too fast and not articulating as well.Léonard Langloishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15928130278471377613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-85080980289679997892009-07-28T12:24:30.750+10:002009-07-28T12:24:30.750+10:00Boy oh boy, aren't I laughing out loud! Btw, I...Boy oh boy, aren't I laughing out loud! Btw, I'm so sorry, but hardly surprised, that it cost you so much to mail me that wonderful book! :-)<br /><br />Well, if it's any consolation, let me tell you that I, too, was introduced to Canada the Overpriced the hard way. Consider yourself lucky you're not a Canadian taxpayer (ouch!)Tipoukeitoshttp://neostipoukeitos.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36592052.post-87703684218858519432009-07-27T15:49:55.451+10:002009-07-27T15:49:55.451+10:00Another set of excellent guffaws, and much needed ...Another set of excellent guffaws, and much needed in present circumstances. For me, the first syllable of <i>Augustus</i> is firmly schwa, by the way, but your conjecture is otherwise correct.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.com